Evidently there will now be two sets of treaty rules Washington treaty will be increasing speeds closer to fast gun rules Midwest Naval Combat Club will be keeping existing rules based on actual ship speeds which is a major reason we formed treaty to begin with ( example, Yamato 27 knots heavy cruiser 33kts) a 6 second difference, not 1 or 2 seconds as in other formats where speed is done by length not class
I completely agree with keeping our rules. I can honesty say that if the format was like fast gun, I wouldn't have joined. I like the format the way it is with more realistic speeds and rates of fire.
A lot of people have complained about our speeds, and we listened to them Phil. This is an R&D rule to see if it solves some of the complaints we've heard. Eric wanted to give you the courtesy of letting you know what we're looking at trying, that's all.
There was a short-lived Treaty club in Halifax, Nova Scotia after the split of the NABS IRCWCC club in 2008. Trying Treaty rules had been discussed for a couple of years; Mike Deskin and I had a few chats about it. Most of one NABS faction decided to try Treaty combat rules and modified pump outputs and model speeds. A battle was held in October 2008 with about 8 ships; everyone liked the slower speeds: fewer rams and more time to plan maneuvers. The slow firing wasn't popular nor the reduced pump outputs. Nearly half the ships sank with relatively little damage compared to IRCWCC battles. The Treaty group wanted to hold battles under both sets of rules so most of us had two sets of props and two pump outlets for each combat model. Unfortunately both the Treaty and IRCWCC groups fizzled out in 2009-2010. Loss of the city-owned battle site and failure to find a privately owned site was a major factor.
I think their has been a steady gravitating towards fast gun by the few members of treaty East of Ohio for sometime now. They can say they haven’t or that they’re listening to complaints etc. Doesn't really matter. If people want faster speeds and then more powerful pumps then *add random Fast-gun-like rule here* then why don’t perhaps those few people just fight fast gun? No sense in reinventing the wheel and they’d probably have more captions to battle with. No skin of my nose if you want to slowly change your own groups rules to fast-gun, but then is it really treaty or is it fast gun-lite? I’m a firm believer in making/keeping it fun.
Some background here, I started in fast gun 38 years ago in the IRC. I was there for unlimited speeds, through the first speed chart then speed by length. 5 of our members have battled fast gun speeds. What we have proposed running next year is not fast gun speeds. Been there, done that, that's why I am here in Treaty. There has been some misconceptions in this thread. I will address the biggest one first. Here is the chart that we had adopted (as R&D): Knots Seconds 20-21 32 22-23. 31 24-25 30 26-27 29 28-29 28 30-31 27 32-33 26 34-35 25 As you can see, unless you are running a Lutzow class cruiser, you are only a second faster than the Yamato per your ship list. A standard us cruiser speed is around 32-33 knots, or a full 3 seconds faster than a Yamato. When I ran cruisers years ago I relished these types of challenges. You should be able to shred a Yamato with a cruiser in Treaty. Looking at a 35 knot ship it travels the same speed as it does in Midwest. A 34 knot ship is a second slower. Esc's make changing speeds really easy. The discussion of speed was brought up a while ago. At first I was steadfastly against it. Recently it was brought up again and we charted it out. I liked that the WW1 and slower ships were going to be more closer grouped (7 seconds instead of 18 seconds per old list). It was brought to the group and was unanimously approved. This, in itself is R&D for a year then we will revisit it. If the group likes it, great, we adopt it. If not we revert back to the old standard speeds. That is how we have handled hot potato issues like this in the past. We still shoot 2 shots a second and I believe that pumping is still the same between the two groups. The difference is Midwest added a lower and upper range on speed that we never adopted (house rules) I sent a private email to Phil as a courtesy to Midwest to inform your him, as your president, of our intentions and was waiting on a response, only to find that this change was posted before Treaty even put it on their Facebook site, let alone the forum. And here we are...dealing with a lot of the same stuff we did years ago. Our little group has delt with the death of a member, divorce, stroke/debilitating accident, job relocation, wife dealing with cancer, retirement and people taking time off due to years of online politics, like what has been discussed here. But we're still kicking and working to grow again. I don't like airing laundry online. It doesn't do any good and causes more problems and slot of stress. If any of you have any questions about things with Treaty, I'd appreciate that you would PM me or call me. My cell number hasn't changed in 25 years. Take care, stay safe and have a great meet this weekend. Eric
I am sorry about jumping the gun on your announcement. I was just trying to clarify for new people. There are a lot of old and new people that don't realize that there is an original treaty (Washington) and a different but similar format used by MNCC. Anyone wishing to join up needs to be aware of any differences which until now were just managerial ,with almost identical rules pertaining to speed ,build,operation. If this makes your group happy carry on. It is my guess that the ones complaining in your group just want to make it easier to switch between fast gun and treaty with minimal modification. It is hard to adjust a boat with a mag throttle to original treaty speeds and back again. I think the next thing they will try to change is firing rate then pump capacity. As Matt so aptly put it," Treaty Lite"
This was something that has been discussed for several years. I personally like the original speeds, but it was a drag always being left behind And I agree with you about not wanting to become treaty lite or IRC lite. We just want to experiment with this and see where it goes. If we come to a Midwest meet, we will run according to your rules as anyone should. And visa versa. We have more in common than we have differences. And yes mag throttles are a pain. Haven't used one in about 5 years As I said, have a great meet.
If you do ever come to one of our meets please leave the Konig at home, it is the toughest boat I have ever fought.
Have new projects for next year, but no promises. The Markgraf is better now than it was the last time you have seen it.
