They don't have 1.5" ones? I'm driving all 4 props (since the outboard two are in front of the 2 outboard rudders). I've been pulling my hair out to get a good prop/rudder setup on the outboard ones, but last night late I figured it out. Smaller props outboard, and the rudders will be 1.5 sqin, with their neutral position at 45 degrees, not parallel to the centerline, so the outboard rudders will give some drag in a straight line. When I turn, the outside rudder is parallel to the centerline of the ship, and the inside rudder is almost barn-doored perpendicular to the centerline. The outboard rudders are kind of concave-shaped (I'll draw the shape in PaintCAD* and update this post). EDIT: Here is the port rudder and prop. Obviously very crude, but PaintCAD is not a 'finesse' tool. *Mike Mangus and I exchange a fair bit of email from work, where I do not have Alibre (a CAD program) to make pretty pictures, which in most cases would be overkill anyway. So, one day I drew something up in MS Paint and referred to it as an 'advanced Army CAD program' and much hilarity ensued. Hence, I refer to it as 'PaintCAD'.
You have hit upon the exact same way I was going to the rudders on mine, had been chatting with Hovey about the idea at our last battle. Definitely keep us posted on how well it works.
You should talk to John B in CO. I think he did something like this to his VV and didn't like it, went back to the single larger rudder. OT, Reno does your Moltke back up faster now with the 4 blade props?
Not going to tell you what to do, but I would advise doing anything for fast gun that didn't involve one big rudder. Love this boat (hence my screen name VV - aholic), but she is nothing more than a super cruiser in fast gun. Sides are so tall you better think twice about sidemounts. Oh, and the two sidemounts on the same side, you are just begging for an NC to open you up. What I have tried (over 8 years). 4 props, three rudders - poor turning Servo city chain to move the rudders - best option 2 massive props (think 2 inch or larger) and one honking big rudder - stop and start, still poor turning power outside props only and oversize those rudders - do it, it's fun to watch a ship do nothing Think super cruiser and stop and start and you will be fine. Oh, put an air piston on the stern guns and have them creating belows about 4 inches from your stern. John B slowly cruised his ship behind mine thinking he was safe, until I pumped 50+ bb's into his ship. One of those priceless moments.
Complexity-wise, one big rudder is easier. If you tried it with 3 rudders and it didn't help, Lou, I will go with the one big rudder and two drive props. My other alternative was also a big cruiser (KGV); I figured that elevate/depression setup like koehler had on Vanguard's sidemounts on the sterns would make for some interesting fun. also, Roma would allow me to balance local battles easier without having to go flag/no-flag. Plus the cool paint job. So you advise no sidemounts... what do you recommend I do with the remaining 2 units? Out of curiosity, what size outboard rudders and props did you use?
You still have to operate all three to use the total area on one big rudder. I did a post with a small piece of rudder attached to satisfy the rule. Mount the sidemounts, but no rotate. You just can't get the depression (those big barbets are cool,but they limit down angle). I was up to 1.75 (dumas cast and cut down) 3 blade mounted in reverse. When I build her again, it will be with 2" props and setup like a cruiser, no attempt to turn as you will just get into trouble. This boat only works when there are other tastier targets (NATS), locally not much fun... BUT, she is the best looking capital ship in the hobby. You know what I would really tell you... You are spreading yourself thin again and building too many ships . This causes burnout...
Tug, if you happen to have access to someone with a small mill/lathe, I can talk you through a way to get more down angle easily while fitting in the turret (along with the added ease of easy elevation control. -Greg
Bob: Yes, Moltke backs up much better now...maybe too fast, I'm thinking I need to make new stern decks since the ones on there are old, warpy, and leaky. Tug, power all four shafts and dont install a rudder at all since you are allied. I need something to practice my bow gun on and since you wont be turning I figure that's the best way
LOL... If doing Roma is overextending myself, I'm not sure what to do for Nats next year. My only fully functional ship at this point is Lil Scharnie. I'd love to run Lil Scharnie again, but I promised Pete I'd help him (since he got shanghai'd into being Allied Admiral). Short of bringing Scharnie and 'helping' by not mounting a pump, that means I need an Allied ship.
Wait wait wait... what's the biggest set of outboard rudders you ran, Lou? With a big-enough-to-be-functional center rudder?
Lets say you make a turn to port. where does the thrust from the starboard side prop go-- straight into the hull. Much like the Yammers, the aux rudders are useless. To get them to work, you will need to move the location of the props/rudders and change the shape of the hull (most likely will get you a chit). We even went as far to mount class 5 rudders and move the outboard prop shafts, still didn't turn as well as one big rudder. Even went with smaller props to get more rudder coverage, guess what suffered? Couldn't start and stop worth a darn, became instant allied death.
Bottom got 'glassed today. Tomorrow, assuming I'm happy with the glass, the centerline driveshafts and gearboxes go in. Maybe the centerline rudder, too. Lots of sanding happened today, both machine-type, and elbow-grease-type. Also got some work done on the new pump.
Hey Lou, First off, "John B slowly cruised his ship behind mine thinking he was safe, until I pumped 50+ bb's into his ship. One of those priceless moments." This was Don in his SODAK, not me Shooter. We were on the same side in Rolla with all our VVs. I have the nice video of it. The best my VV ever turned was one year for a regional when I turned the rear end into an NC look alike with solid skegs. It turned better, but is no longer a legal way to build it and was really just a test to see how good it could turn. Still not good We have always run both with one large rudder and tw nubs. 1 3/4 inch props with 40 ppitch for acceleration. We ran then together several times and found the best way to sink someone is to get them between us and the hulls will push them under all by themselves, which is nice since you usually can't shoot them that close. Still love the ship and plan a refit for it. It is my test ship and target training ship right now. "Sorry Lou, I know that is horrible to do to it" It is a pretty ship. I might have photos of when I changed it. r/John
Hey Tug, I have a little Scharnie I have had in the works since NATs 2007/9???? Can't remember. Built and battled the Des Moines sice then. Anyway, I have read all the articles on Brushless motors and ESCs and I want to build it with brushless. I thought that 1/12" props would be best but not sure what pitch to use. What motor would be the best for it using One motor and one prop and most likely a B/C geearbox? Thanks for the suggestions. Mike can always jump in also. r/John
Honestly, Lil Scharnie is my favoritestest boat EVAR. Most fun. Most fun to watch people try to sink Motor (drive) assuming 7.2V or thereabouts power: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__5690__Turnigy_2217_16turn_1050kv_23A_Outrunner.html With this ESC: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18398__Hobbyking_25A_Brushless_Car_ESC.html (if you really want to get crazy, you can go to the 40A but you'll never use it at our speeds) (get the programming card. it's $6 and worth $50) Pump motor (conveniently bolts up to a BC half-unit pump)(or make a custom one for more flow): http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__15187__S2838_2800_Brushless_Inrunner_2800kv_.html With this Aircraft ESC: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__7339__Hobbyking_SS_Series_50_60A_ESC.html Buy two of all of those, and have a spare in your toolbox! All ESCs need epoxy potting, easy to do and worked well for me at Nats. I had a brushed drive motor, admittedly, but the brushless upgrade to the drive is planned. I ran 1.25" 4-blade shallow pitch prop via a BC gearbox. Very important if you want to slow down and not suck up lots of ram penalties. At locals, I ran a 4AH 7.2V NiMH pack. At Nats, I upped it to 8AH LiPO at 7.4V. Ran 5 sorties on one battery with no issues. Ran pump lots. Drove around lots. Used rudder very little. Largely because it was jammed sideways for about half my sorties. Shout out to 1st Sea Lord Jackie Fisher for helping sort that out, even though he was on the other team! What a great guy
Off to the in-laws' house this weekend. Got to sit around at a car show* on Saturday, taking some sheet brass and my tin snips to get pump parts made. Easier to make 'em when you've got the parts already cut out! *Father-in-law is taking his car, so after an hour of wandering around looking at the other cars, I get to sit for 3-4 hours. That's a bunch of pump parts I can make
I really do love that little boat. Ever since Charley brought his to Inverness, Florida in 2001 I think. It was so cool and nice looking in a nimimalist sort of way. What a great ship for cruiser battles. I tried to remember when I got my hull and I know it was at a NATs from Rick, but just can't place it. It might have been 2005 in Ionia. I really need to build these faster, but the delay has allowed the new technology to develop and now this little ship can reap all the rewards. It will be a simple build with only two guns and one motor and almost no super structure. And it has a routed deck that David made for me so it will not leak any water. I think it will be great fun and easy on the back since it is only about 12 pounds. I am excited about building again. Woooo Hoooo. It is good to be back.
I started every sortie at this past Nats with Lil Scharnie in the _middle_ of the enemy fleet. Every sortie No sinks, although Bob came close at one point, I think I was on 5 out of control and he was trying to prop-wash me under along the shore. Came close! But no actual sinks. The funny thing is, after everyone commenting on all the stringers and casements it has, after de-sheeting post-Nats, I realized that I could've had several more sections of stringer under the new rules. When I build Scharnie 2.0 I'll probably use them But I was ver proud of the little homebrew pump with the small brushless motor (same motor that Darth Kessler has/had on his Bismarck, looked VERY small in that application). It did very well for a 2-year old pump. The new pumps I'm building are better-suited to maintenance which will lengthen the motor lifespan. The shaft-end bearing on the old motor sounds like it's grinding rocks after the last local battle. The new pump for Roma (so this can be a Roma post) has a 40mm dia x 15mm high swept area, which is quite a bit more than the stock plastic pumps have; I went for bigger diameter and a lower RPM to see if more swept area will help move more water. At normal (insane) speeds, a 40mm rotor would have a blade tip velocity through the roof, hence the slightly lower speed motor (Should be around 21,000rpm unloaded) to avoid cavitation. One could always run any high kv motor slower, but then it's not in it's best torque range. I am Allied this year for Nats, but I need to keep running Lil Scharnie Maybe we can do an armoured cruiser squadron of the Hochseeflotte for Nats 2014
