Let's take away the effects of a good captain, let's purely discuss ship capabilities. Which ship do you believe can last longer in a fire fight? Take things like speed (those who fight & run away, live to...) quantity of weapons (the best defense is a good...) displacement (no replacement for...) overall stability (over turned ships can end a fight quickly)
I offer up the Iowa battleship (of course); it has a great balance of speed/weapons/displacement. Those that it cannot outgun, it can out run.
If you take away the Capitan, then the Yamato wins I think. The most displacement and more pump make it able to stay the longest. If you talking about best ship for combat, not staying power, I'd say Iowa followed by Richelieu if your Axis. The things I personally think are important during a fire fight are (in order of importance). 1. Capitan's skill (ignored per post rules) 2. Opposing captain's skill (ignored per post rules) 3. Reliability 4. Displacement/Stability 5. Guns (size, configuration) 6. Luck 7. Speed
I agree when it comes to big gun; but with small gun I think its more like: 1. Captian's skill (ignored per post rules) 2. Opposing captain's skill (ignored per post rules) 3. Reliability 4. Stability 4. Speed 5. Displacement 6. Gun placement 7. Luck
A "firefight" is a pretty broad term. I'm going to narrow it down to a "slugfest." Lets define a slugfest as two or more ships brawling at close range. If you can survive a duel like this, you can probably survive most other situations. There is no substitute for captain skill. Know how to use your boat and land your shots, and you can pick your opponent apart (especially if he doesn't know what he's doing). Though we all agree that this is number one, we also are supposed to ignore it for this thread. Next is how well the boat was built. The builder gets the boat to reach its maximum possible performance. I compared two Scharnhorsts once. One could turn in half the radius of the other, even though they have similar prop and rudder configurations. Better internal weight distribution made all the difference. ALso included in this is reliability. Everything must do exactly what it is supposed to exactly when you tell it to 100% of the time. Nothing more, nothing less, not before, not after. A good captain in a bad boat is as useless as a bad captain in a good boat. Only after you are a good captain AND a good builder do other factors come into play. Every ability helps a ship to stay afloat longer. The more abilities, the more a captain has to work with. However, different ships focus on different abilities. Destroyers, light cruisers, submarines, and boats primarily armed with torpedos have no place in a slugfest. They are not designed to swap braodsides with a battleship, and to attempt this is suicide. Heavy cruisers, and small ships primarily armed with small caliber rotating guns Also have no place in a slugfest. They can neither dish out nor take the punishment that a battleship can. Battleships and battlescruisers displacement: there is no replacement... armor: anything less than 1/8" is suicide, smaller caliber rounds can more easily penetrate 3/32" armor underwater maneuverability: get in a better position or keep your opponent in a bad one armament: the more guns in a turret and the larger caliber shot the better damage dealt, and if you sink your opponent before he can sink you, you win (of course, if you sink 30 seconds later...) My favorite battleships: Iowa and Roma: Both ships have a good balance of speed, firepower, and displacement. Roma is slightly slower but the raised aft turret makes up for it in a slugfest. South Dakota and Scharnhorst: These ships are maneuverable. Incredibly maneuverable. SoDak has bigger guns than Scharnhorst, but Scharnhorst is faster. Alsace and Montana: Big, mean, and very scary. Both pack tremendous displacement, and the twelve 1/4" guns in each allow you to pick your poison: four triple turrets, or three quad turrets. Either way, it's bad news to be on the receiving end. Normandie and Viribus Unitis: While short on displacement and only firing 7/32 cannons, these ships more than make up for it with their awesome dreadnought maneuverability, and a hefty punch. Again you can choose between trips and quads. Nelson, Dunkerque, and Strausbourg: These ships pack a concentrated forward punch. Rodney is rather slow, but has more guns than the Dunk or Straus. Again you can choose trips, quads, and caliber. Their mobility and agility vary by ship, but the offensive weapon arrangement makes any of these ships a welcome (or unwelcome) sight in a slugfest. My least favorite battleships: Yamato and H-39: These ships are big, unwieldy, and don't pack the punch to make up for it. These obese behemoths are so huge that they can be attacked in sections. They don't pack enough all-around firepower to drive off littler battleships that might attack only the aft quarter of these titans. I have watched a Nelson attack only the back half of an H-39, matching six guns against four. The Nelson won, hands down. If you're gonna build a ship this big, you might as well go with an Alsace or Montana, and get the guns to go with it. Bismark and Hood: These are decent battleships overall, but double turrets are just not the same as triples. A well-built Iowa or Roma will pick apart these ships in a head-to-head. I have a question: We all know that the more guns in a turret and the larger caliber shot, the better. In the WWCC, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are allowed 6 guns. Would you rather build a Scharnhorst with a pair of triple 7/32" cannons, or a Gneisenau with a trio of double 1/4" cannons?
"I have a question: We all know that the more guns in a turret and the larger caliber shot, the better. In the WWCC, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are allowed 6 guns. Would you rather build a Scharnhorst with a pair of triple 7/32" cannons, or a Gneisenau with a trio of double 1/4" cannons?" Not sure on that one. I ran the North Carolina for two battles with the configuration she was laid down in; 12 14" in 3 turrets. I switched to the standard setup quickly and was much happier. The main difference is penetration into the balsa. That said this situation is not the same; not sure what I would suggest, probably 3x2 1/4. Andy
Two things: 1.) I thought the Gneisenau class had three triple 11". 2.) I didn't think the Gneisenau ever went to sea with her 15" guns? I thought she was sunk before they were finished with that upgrade? *Disclamer: I don't run a Gneisenau class, so I don't know much about the rules regarding them; is it legal in BG to run that upgrade?* Provided I'm wrong & the choice is how you layed it out... It would depend on how I intended to fight with her. If I was a captain who preferred frontal attacks, I would pick the treo of doubles because that would give me 4 shells in the front. Otherwise I would choose pair of triples, so I could have 3 in the back.
Yes Gneisenau had three triple 11". The conversion to 15" was begun: they removed the 11" cannons and had the 15" on the dock getting ready to install, as I recall. That is enough to allow it in the WWCC. I bought a used Scharnhorst and ran it with 2 triple 7/32" cannons, one forward and one fixed aft. I was considering doing the conversion to 15" cannons, but didn't do it because of the complexity and cost of the additional turret. I later sold Scharnhorst and the new owner promptly began a refit to have two triple 7/32" cannon forward. Interesting point about penetration. Nobody believes me when I say that 7/32" cannon don't penetrate as well as 1/4", especially underwater.
Sorry, let me rephrase.. I thought the Gneisenau class (therefore Scharnhorst) had three triple 11". FYI, I've added a topic in the weapons category for a penitration discussion. I think it is a topic that should be addressed as well... I think we all have an opinion!
Alsace, Normandie, Dunkerque, and Strausbourg... AAhhh, the French... Anything worth doing, is worth doing four times over. It's interesting you don't like the Yamato. Many people swear by these ships. Personally, I'm with you they are just too big for my taste. & they are Japanese, which my grandmother will swear makes them break more often. I'd be interested in hearing what the fast gun guys think... I would bet we hear a different story! I would bet with the standard compliment of fixed guns & all one size armor, the cruiser classification easily over takes & annihalates battleships.
I don't think they are too big, I think they are too ill-equipped for their size. While a Yamato can tackle other big battleships pretty well, it is too large and too lightly armed to tackle the smaller "treaty" battleships. I have seen smaller battleships (dreadnoughts especially) absolutely annihiliate eight- and nine-gun superbattleships. As for the fast gun guys, ya never know until you ask. Point out this discussion on their Yahoo group and we'll get some responses. Who knows, maybe more people will start monitoring this forum! Personally, I think that the fast gun competitions are not ruled by cruisers, because there is quite a diversity in their ships. They have dreadnoughts, battlecruisers, treaty battleships, non-treaty battleships, and of course the eight-unit Yamato and Iowa. Heck, they might have more ship diversity than Big Gun clubs do!
You would be right there with that assessment.Here at Nabs Captains skill can make a poor reliable ship be deadly. Note I said reliable. No matter how disadvantaged a ship is with practice on the water, good tactics and a well built ship, the disadvantages can be offset.
Cruisers in SMALL gun will never overwhelm a large battleship or small ship. Heck they can barely sink each other. But I have been overwhelmed by teams of cruisers. One pair a Lutzow and a Houston effectivly shut down my Bismarck. One would attack my beam while I pursued the lead cruiser who in turn was strafing me with a stern gun. They would keep their distance from each other but would always bracket me. End result my antennae was shot off, the Bismarck ended up bow in to the shore and the 2 cruisers just parked themselves at point blank range and ripped bismarck apart. Thank god for the pump but mostly the hits wer above the wateline. Still it showed what you can do as long as there is only 1 battleship around. One time I had a team consisting of Bismarck and 4 cruisers. Well 2 cruisers were sunk by the Allied Battleships and one had to retire defeated. With no coordination and the Bismarck ramsunk by the Lutzow the remaining cruisers were at the mercy of the NC,Warspite and Tennessee and Barham.
Just throwing it out there, but, with all things being equal, and no disdvantages are given, then the Yamato class wins hands down every time. Properly played the extra capacity created by the sheer size of the boat wins against any other ship, assuming that the other is not another Yamato. However, I have seen two different captains playing very competitively against one another. One was having issues and the other was 100%. The issues captain was the Yamato. The 100% was a Mushasi. The Mushasi and her captain won handedly over the Yamato in less then five minutes. I can think of no boat all things being even that can beat the Yamato. It is a great promotional ship for our club even though we are on the Atlantic Ocean, no where near where she would have sailed. A captain with excellent skill and experience, can outlast any other ship one on one. Take an experienced boater and throw them behind the controls and I think they have a way better than average chance of survival. Unless of course the skilled captain has, say, an Iowa! Like I said just throwing my hat in this ring. There is no other ship with the pure and nature advantages that the Yamato has.
Problem with the Yamato (In biggun anyway) is its not manuverable enough or fast enough to chase anything down. Almost any ship can get away.
Figured that I'd jump in with a fast gun perspective I agree with Aroeske about with proper captaincy(is that a word?), the Yammer is the Hammer. Don't ask it to do things it's not good at, and the sheer volume makes her darn near unsinkable (in fast guns, anyway). She's fast battleship, and under MWCI rules no BBs are faster than 24sec. The cruisers and destroyers will be able to evade for the most part. The Yammer is, however, as fast as the battlecruisers and treaty BBs. Rob Stalnaker's Yammer went one-on-everybody at a regional battle and only sank in the third sortie. That's against an experienced SoDak, a new Vanguard, and several other BCs/small BBs. And a Gearing. They're so cute. I mostly do BCs and CAs, my Vanguard being an exception. The most important thing for me (other than improving my aim and tactical awareness) is to get the ship balanced. Prior to last Nats, I spent 4 hours next to the bathtub, sinking my HMS Invincible over and over, moving stuff around until she sank straight and level, all the way down. In one glorious battle, I had radio trouble, called "% out of control" and spent that 5 minutes sandwiched between 2 Bismarcks. I (only) took 34 belows and a mess of aboves, thank god my radio troubles left my pump in the ON position. If she'd been the least bit tippy, she would have sank. Curt is correct that fast-guns cruisers will never sink a Yamato (or an Iowa, for that matter). The small ships in fast-guns don't have side-firing guns that can aim low enough to cause hits below the water line. They might swiss-cheese the balsa above the waterline, but that ain't gonna sink a Yammer.
Yes I can see that but that shouldn't matter as your turrets rotate so maneuvering the big ship should not be an issue. Most battleships in big gun don't maneuver well at the slower speeds unlike fast gun a Yamato can turn within a 9ft circle no problem. We have one here that turned with a North Carolina class. In Biggun wouldn't a Yamato have that much more thicker Balsa , if so cruisers should not be much of a threat. Other battleships I wouldnt' worry too much about. A Yamato broadside is hitting with large calibler ball bearings is that correct? So a smaller battleship has more to fear from a Yamato Broadside then a regular sized battleship. How fast is a Yamato in Biggun?
Just for giggles I took the (big gun) Alsace to a MWC event, with full big gun armor. It was sooo slowwww compared to the other cruisers & BCs.. They came in, scored a bunch of hits, then RAN away at top speed before the alsace could even turn its guns to bear. The alsace took a good bit of damage but sank much faster than I'd expected against fast gun boats..
Yeah, I wouldn't bet against her if you had changed gears out to move at fast-guns speeds. Holy crap, what a killer she'd be!
