Fast Gun Texas--Operational

Discussion in 'Warship Builds' started by Anvil_x, Nov 22, 2017.

  1. Anvil_x

    Anvil_x Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2017
    Posts:
    1,545
    Location:
    Athens, GA
    Howdy!

    So, my kit should be arriving pretty soon, and since this is this week's internet day (I live in an internet/cable free cabin in Alaska and have to ride 20 miles to get on the internet/food/mail etc), I figured I'd start this sucker up and hopefully you guys will have replied to some of my questions.

    Last boat I built was a Northampton in 2001, and I've been doing 'Merica stuff and college for the past 16 years. so my basic skills (soldering, woodworking, etc) are all still good, but my MWC-related stuff (gun assembly, electrical systems) has all been dumped.

    I'm building one of RCENGR's kits from Strike, and have spent a significant amount of time looking at all of your ships in the "stem to Stern" section for schematics, Ideas, etc. You guys have some rockin' ships.

    I plan on going with some 28mm brushless motors and running a 6.6V system (about all I remember from building the Hamp was that I ran something something 6 volts, so I figure start with something I somewhat remember) Feel free to change my mind on system voltage.

    Radio: One of the things I am glad about is that I saved the Airtronics VG400 from my Hamp. I gutted all of the servos and such out of her before I left home, and it was fortunate considering the Hamp disappeared while I was in Afghanistan (parents sold/tossed it) I have a receiver, three servos, one of my old throttle switches, a receiver battery, the TX, and charger.

    I'm going to use a small pelican case for a watertight box, with ESCs running the motors and pump and the gun servo slapped in there. basically stealing the crap out of Maxspin's otter box design for his NC

    I have no idea what the deal is with solenoids, so throw whatever knowledge you can at me. I've been lurking for two months and all of the threads on solenoids look like conversational Japanese to me.
    I understand the physics that make solenoids work, but beyond knowing they're the bang button, I know nothing. I Figure I could run the guns with a single servo that has two switches glued to its sides like the speed control servo in my old boat. I saw something about firing boards, but again, it all sounds like witchcraft. I may work in one of the weirdest, most obscure and complex niches in Biology, but Barney style is my speed with this.


    Since I only have four channels to work with for now, I've been doing all my schematics based on having 2 stern port sidemounts in D and E turrets rigged to fire together, and dual sides slung to starboard in A & B turrets rigged in a similar manner. Somebody please tell me this is a kosher gun arrangement.

    I'll be the only dude with an MWC boat in AK, so I'll likely not be fighting for quite a long time. If the above gun layout isn't kosher, then no big deal, I'll just go with another configuration and won't run all of them until I get a better transmitter.

    Anywho, I really wish I was down there in Lower America with you guys so I could pick your brains at build parties, but until the jobs in Wisconsin get back to me, I'm going to be up here drinkin beer, punching moose or whatever.
    I may be able to get on the internet tomorrow, but the boat's sitting in the Seattle USPS facility at the moment, so I don't expect anything will change. I'll post up pics as soon as get the boat/come back to town.
     
  2. Kevin P.

    Kevin P. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2015
    Posts:
    1,715
    Location:
    Chantilly, VA
    Hey there, glad to see a new build thread! A few things / suggestions

    MWC folded a few years ago, IRCWCC is the primary show in town so I would recommend building by those rules. I think there are a few other groups that go by local rules

    Your gun arrangement would not be kosher, a typical class 5 setup would be dual stern guns, one stern sidemount, one bow sidemount (on opposite sides). Building it legal will significantly reduce the barriers to attending a large battle in the future

    A few guys still use the old 75MHz radios like your Airtronics, most have now switched over to 2.4GHz, which essentially removes glitching. 75MHz still works fine for those who choose to use it.

    Solenoids sound more complicated than they actually are, most battlers use solenoids with gun boards from BC or Strike. When using the gun boards (certain ones) all you really have to do is solder a connector to the leads to the solenoid and plug it in to the board

    Water resistant boxes are also out of style, most just waterproof the receiver, gun and pump boards, and use a manufactured waterproof servo for the rudder. You gun set up with servos would work, but typically you can get higher reliability with gun boards. If you are a fan of 'plug and play,' BC just came out with an integrated gun and pump board with connections for your battery, ESC, pump, and solenoids. Charley made a good video explaining how the board works, it is about as simple as it gets in terms of wiring up a boat. If you pot it in epoxy it should be waterproof, the potential downside is that a failure of the board impacts a lot more systems. The videos are in this thread at the end
    https://www.rcwarshipcombat.com/threads/new-combat-gear.445203/

    I would recommend sticking to brushed motors (normal DC motors) rather than brushless. I've seen a lot of newer people have issues with brushless, where brushed requires less care and typically can have very high reliability. I would recommend using gearboxes from BC or Traxxas Villain (amazon) along with a basic 550 motor (or johnson 600), and a 60 Amp hobby wing ESC (BC sells). I use brushless on my primary boats based on performance, but a large portion of the best captains still used brushed motors very effectively.

    For batteries, a large percentage of captains use LiFe (spoken 'lie-fee') batteries, you can get 20AH bricks from batteryspace.com along with a charger. A ship like the Texas could still use lead acid batteries, but I don't think the price difference is large enough to make it worth it to go with lead acid, the performance of the LiFe batteries is far superior.

    Hopefully you find this information useful, kind of all over the place.

    Is the place in alaska heated enough for epoxy to set?
     
  3. Anvil_x

    Anvil_x Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2017
    Posts:
    1,545
    Location:
    Athens, GA
    Thanks for the heads up. I'll take a look at the rules again and see what I can do with regard to mounting options. Thanks for the link, I'd like to get as close to modern practices as possible, and that video will help. I've been looking at brushless motor prices, and seriously considering just getting a pair of 380 can motors. Does anyone know the calculation to figure out what kind of thrust you can get out of a motor with varied prop angles? Strike's product descriptions on their 380 cans has the rpm at 6.6V, which is my planned voltage. so if I have an equation to go off of, I can dial in the velocity pretty close to start.

    Wow. pretty good start so far. One post and we already have major revisions!
     
  4. Kevin P.

    Kevin P. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2015
    Posts:
    1,715
    Location:
    Chantilly, VA
    For the Texas I would recommend a 540 size motor with a gearbox, 380's will be disappointing. You don't need any equations, just change the ESC setting via the radio. I'd recommend 1.75" 4 blade props, either make the shafts/stuffing tubes or figure out the right length and order from strike/BC. Gearbox I'd use the GB500 from BC or Traxxas Villain gearboxes on amazon or similar, but the BC ones come with gears which means fewer items to purchase. Use the Hobbywing 60 amp ESC from BC, and two drive motors from BC (550 size) or strike (HC600). This setup will maximize the reliability and performance of the drive train
     
  5. Anvil_x

    Anvil_x Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2017
    Posts:
    1,545
    Location:
    Athens, GA
    okey. I'd prefer to use the integral mounts on the model, but if you're gearing it down, then what's the point? all you'd seem to gain would be a ton of torque.
    Also, what angle on those props? Strike has two options-- 27 degree and 35 degree. I can see where you'd want increased torque with the 35.

    Also, how would I change that setting via my TX? my old airtronics is.... well it's old. I have a feeling that "get a new setup and use that radio to build a Vac-u-Fletcher or something" may be your answer....
     
  6. Kevin P.

    Kevin P. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2015
    Posts:
    1,715
    Location:
    Chantilly, VA
    You want a ton of torque. Torque leads to acceleration, which can determine who gets their guns on target and who is more of a sitting duck. Angle of the blades on the prop is less important, 35 should be fine

    The airtronics should have a throttle endpoint adjustment, if i remember correctly there should be a adjustment point that you rotate with a very small screwdriver. Having a 5 or 6 channel radio would be better, since you can use the 5th channel for the pump switch / circuit. You can make something work with just 4 channels for a class 5 boat, but it will make the setup more complicated in the boat. I think that there are some cheap 2.4GHz radios out there, most use the spektrum dx6i (can get used on ebay) or dx7
     
  7. Anvil_x

    Anvil_x Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2017
    Posts:
    1,545
    Location:
    Athens, GA
    Alright, I'll just use the airtronics to test everything out, then I'll order one of those custom rigs from RCSouth when I'm ready.

    So what's with all of these boats running direct drive?
     
  8. Kevin P.

    Kevin P. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2015
    Posts:
    1,715
    Location:
    Chantilly, VA
    I base my advice on what I see at battles vs things I see online (attended 7 battles this year). Direct drive can work, mainly for smaller ships (class 4 and below) and more so with brushless due to their added torque. I have seen very few successful ships class 5 and up with brushed direct drive. It's your ship though so you should build it how you want
     
  9. Anvil_x

    Anvil_x Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2017
    Posts:
    1,545
    Location:
    Athens, GA
    okay, so direct drive with brushless, geared with brushed. got it. I'd still like to try using those integral mounts though... but I'll take a gander at them when the kit gets here and decide then
     
  10. Beaver

    Beaver 2020 Rookie of the Year Admiral (Supporter)

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2013
    Posts:
    3,674
    Location:
    Central PA
    Direct drive with brushless works well enough. I've run two ships with direct drive (both class 3) and acceleration has been ok. I'm going to be converting my latest ship to belt reduction this winter just to have a little more torque on the shafts.

    There are. I'm loving my Turnigy i6 from HobbyKing. Great little radio, easy to program, lightweight, nice feeling sticks, only uses 4 AA batteries and it's only $45 currently. Only complaint is that it doesn't have a built in timer like my 9x. :)

    Welcome, Anvil! Looking forward to seeing some progress on the build. You're starting out the right way, asking questions and taking good advice from the vets. You can't go far wrong that way! :)
     
  11. Anvil_x

    Anvil_x Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2017
    Posts:
    1,545
    Location:
    Athens, GA
    Listening to the Sourdoughs kept me alive through two tours in the sandbox, and the most ridiculous bush adventures you can imagine. I made a TON of mistakes building my Hamp because I didn't have anybody to talk to, and I'd like to avoid that this time.

    Wow, that TX looks pretty sharp! I'll have to keep it in the hip pocket
     
  12. Kevin P.

    Kevin P. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2015
    Posts:
    1,715
    Location:
    Chantilly, VA
    I'd strongly recommend using brushed motors over brushless. I have seen way too many new people show up with brushless and never get on the water or have issues all weekend, and typically those people don't come back, which is not good for them or the hobby.

    I use brushless now, beaver uses brushless, and a number of other captains use it without issue, but brushed motors give much larger success rates for new people. Don't fear gearboxes, they aren't real complicated at all, generally more reliable than a dogbone setup with direct drive
     
  13. SteveT44

    SteveT44 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2009
    Posts:
    1,855
    Location:
    MD
    I think I'm the only one doing new builds with direct drive brushed, so I thought I'd chime in here. I'm running my 5.5 unit Barham/QE direct drive'd brushed and I think it scoots across the pond as well as anyone out there. The secret is the motor, prop, and voltage combination. I'm running 24v in this boat driving brushed motors optimized for these voltages (RS-555PH). The props are plastic 1.75" Vacu-Boat tug props cut down to 1.5". This combination is working quite well IMO. I get around the reliability issues of dog-bones by not using them. I spend some effort in getting the motor and shaft alignment as perfect as I can get so I can dump this failure point. If you want to stick with 6v, then certainly go the gear reduction route because you'll need it to get usable torque out of any 6v high rpm motor (brushed or brushless).

    Looking forward to your build btw.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
  14. pba

    pba Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2009
    Posts:
    207
    Location:
    dayton
    The secret is to run 540 sized crawler motors 55turn 65turn85turn tons of torque low current low prm 5k-8k most motors from rc4wd online are 9.95 to 15.00 dollars.
     
  15. Anvil_x

    Anvil_x Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2017
    Posts:
    1,545
    Location:
    Athens, GA
    Hey, that sounds like a good case for running a higher voltage. the only thing I have purchased so far is the kit, turrets, plans, and the 1 unit pump. My only big question about dealing with higher voltage is whether or not I'd be able to plug in the receiver through the ESC power relay and not have the dang thing explode. I'll run it on any voltage as long as the odds are low for making expensive fires.

    I'm fine with brushed/brushless/geared/direct drive, whichever works best. My only hesitance is sticking to the KISS principle with regard to mounting (the motor mount is part of rib 13, and holes are drilled for the shafts). I'm thinking of getting a pair of brushed motors with gear boxes, and getting some hands-on time with them. once I see how everything works and feels in the hand, I can just fabricate what I need to get the drive train together.

    I cannot emphasize how badly I screwed up my Hamp's drive train. it was awful. that's probably a huge chunk of why I want to get this right

    So how are you getting that voltage? what kind of batteries etc are you running? all the details you got, I'll take 'em.

    ALSO: The boat's in the mailbox. just have to get the key from the neighbor.
     
  16. Beaver

    Beaver 2020 Rookie of the Year Admiral (Supporter)

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2013
    Posts:
    3,674
    Location:
    Central PA
    That will depend on the esc. If the ESC is rated for 24v or higher you'll be fine as it is built to handle those voltages. Also, some have stated that removing the BEC (battery eliminator circuit - basically a voltage regulator that feeds 5v to the receiver) from the esc you can power it on higher voltages without burning up anything. Best just to play it safe and get an esc rated for the voltages you plan to run though.
    That would be a good route. Get something simple, proven, and reliable to get it running and maybe look into the cooler tech later when you feel comfortable.
    You can find a lot of that info in Steve's build thread. HMS Barham - Fastgun :)

    Looking forward to seeing the build! :)
     
    Anvil_x likes this.
  17. Kevin P.

    Kevin P. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2015
    Posts:
    1,715
    Location:
    Chantilly, VA
    Stick with 6V, life is much easier. Steve has special build skills that aren't for us common folk, such as making his own gun boards. gun boards from strike and BC are good up to 15V I think.

    Like I have been saying since post 1, stick with 6V, 540 motors, gearbox, done, really not difficult.

    I have pictures of 3 of my builds with that set up. Here are the steps
    1) Take stuffing tube, insert into motor mount
    2) Epoxy motor mount and shaft to hull

    If you have holes in the ribs for the shafts, use those and either cut down the rib with the holes for direct drive or just place the motor mount/gear box on the forward end of the shaft. BC gearboxes work the same way, GB500.

    Towards the bottom of the page
    https://www.rcwarshipcombat.com/threads/agincourt-build-ircwcc.445369/

    Mid page
    https://www.rcwarshipcombat.com/threads/seydlitz-build-ircwcc.445029/page-4

    Mid page
    https://www.rcwarshipcombat.com/threads/uss-missouri-build-ircwcc.445059/page-2
     
    Lou, Anvil_x and Beaver like this.
  18. Beaver

    Beaver 2020 Rookie of the Year Admiral (Supporter)

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2013
    Posts:
    3,674
    Location:
    Central PA
    Here's a tip for you, Kevin, if you want to reference a certain post in a thread, down by the 'like', 'reply', and 'bookmark' buttons there is a number (#17 for your post above) you can click that will give you a direct link to that post. (copy the bottom one) Just copy and paste it into the thread and when you click it you'll be taken right to that post. Super easy and nice when you want to reference.
    As a bit of a teaser, this is what your post could have looked like. ;)
    Agincourt build (IRCWCC)
    Seydlitz build (IRCWCC)
    USS Missouri Build (IRCWCC)
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
  19. Kevin P.

    Kevin P. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2015
    Posts:
    1,715
    Location:
    Chantilly, VA
    Thanks Caleb, but there's only so much effort I want to go through telling a new guy the same thing 3 times :)
     
    Anvil_x likes this.
  20. Beaver

    Beaver 2020 Rookie of the Year Admiral (Supporter)

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2013
    Posts:
    3,674
    Location:
    Central PA
    Well hey, you obviously took the time to find those posts in your threads. Whats a little more effort copying some links? ;)